In this episode of the Translating ADHD podcast, Ash and Dusty explore the complex relationship between ADHD and professionalism. They discuss how societal norms often impose arbitrary standards of professionalism that can be particularly challenging for individuals with ADHD. Through personal anecdotes and client stories, they highlight the importance of recognizing and advocating for one’s strengths, rather than solely focusing on perceived weaknesses. The conversation emphasizes that professionalism can be redefined, encouraging listeners to challenge traditional expectations and seek workplaces that value their unique contributions.
Additionally, Ash and Dusty address the significance of managing expectations both personally and within professional relationships. They share insights on how to communicate effectively about strengths and challenges, fostering a more inclusive work environment. By focusing on co-creation and flexibility in the workplace, individuals with ADHD can find more fulfilling roles and navigate their careers from a place of confidence and strength, rather than limitation.
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Episode Transcript:
[00:00:00] Ash: Hi, I’m Ash. [00:00:03] Dusty: And I’m Dusty. [00:00:04] Ash: And this is Translating ADHD. Dusty, you want to tell our listeners what it is we’re going to be talking about today? [00:00:12] Dusty: We’re going to be talking about ADHD and professionalism. [00:00:16] Ash: Ooh, that’s a thorny topic. [00:00:19] Dusty: Yeah, well, certainly it is for me as a professional working in ADHD, but one of the things that I love to model for my clients is this idea of redefining professionalism. And I find that a lot of folks with ADHD have struggled in socially prescribed settings, like, like what it is to be professional.And there’s so many things that go into that, right? How you dress. That’s how you talk, the language you use, like how you respond to emails, not just with not just the speed with which you respond to emails. And there’s all these little social rules that, that apply when it comes into being what it means to be professional.
I think the mind blowing moment for me was when I was having a discussion with my ex husband’s sister and we were talking about hiring because I was the manager of a retail store, and she had done some hiring in the past. And we were talking about the hiring process and, you know, when people first come in and they sit down. And she leans over and goes, Oh my God, yes, you know, you know what I always do? And I go, what? And she goes, I look at their nails. And I was like, what?
And she goes, oh yeah, like, you just know if somebody has like, really rough cut up fingernails and their hands aren’t well taken care of, like, that’s a big red flag for me. I was gobsmacked. Because as somebody who struggles with body focused repetitive behaviors like nail biting, and I’m a guitarist so I usually keep my nails quite short, I was like, so I was totally flabbergasted because I had never, it had never occurred to me that people in job interviews might be looking at my hands, which I really didn’t take for granted. And I was like, I can’t explain the emotion that I had, but it was an emotion of like betrayal and anger and shock because I’m like, how many jobs have I not gotten because people, I didn’t know that hands, hands and nails were a thing.
And I think that was the moment for me where I realized, like, that the concept of like professionalism is based on like a lot of stupid and really arbitrary neurotypical things that have nothing to do with how good of a worker you are because I had job after job where I struggled or maybe even got fired even though I tried so hard, I worked so hard. I delivered high quality like results or like, you know, if the people told me that they wanted something, like in my brain, I went after that like a dog with a bone. And yet somehow was still like not meeting standards
[00:02:36] Ash: I’m a little flabbergasted too. Of all the things that I expected to come out of your mouth, hands and nails – I’m a nail biter, too – is not one of them. And isn’t this the kind of stuff that can plant a story in your head that stays with you forever, right? Where you’re suddenly hyper aware of your hands and your nails and this has to be right.And that becomes another piece of the mask that you’re wearing this exhausting. Thing we do of trying to conform, trying to behave quote unquote correctly.
[00:03:13] Dusty: Yeah, well, I recently gave a presentation for a tech company. And while I was researching some new data for that presentation, I came across this that does something called, that promotes this idea of skills based hiring. And they put out a report called, you know, the state of skills based hiring in 2022 and 2023. And they’re talking about how like hiring based on the person’s skills versus like how they present has led to a lot of like, a lot of high satisfaction in hiring. And, you know, so the whole report was just talking about the state of skills based hiring, but I was like, wait, what are we hiring on if not skills? All hiring isn’t skills based hiring? Apparently not.And so what you just said there, Asher, but like, doesn’t this lead to a story in your head? Actually, this was one of my earliest coaching experiences, and it actually led to me changing my contract because when I was a very green coach, I coached someone who was really challenging. And I don’t know, maybe like they had, they may have had some demand avoidance or something, but it was my first time that I had sort of a bad fit with a client because they just found the coaching process distressing.
Nothing against them, nothing wrong with them, but like by the end of the coaching session, they would almost sometimes be in tears. Not because of the topic that we talked about, but the process of being asked questions, like open ended questions, they found really distressing. So I learned an important lesson there.
But one of the things that we coached on was that this person needed to get a job. And so we were talking about the process of looking for jobs and the process of interviewing, and the client said something really interesting. They said, you know, I’m not good at interviews. I’m not good at job searching. My friends even tell me that I’m good at interviews. They think I’m good at interviews, but they’re wrong. I’m not good at interviewing.
And I was like, well, that’s interesting. You’re even, your friends are trying to tell you. I thought to myself, here’s a story that’s so strong that this person is so invested in it, even to the point of resisting like evidence to the contrary. And so as a good coach, I said to them, okay, well, is there another way to look at the situation? I hear that getting a job feels stressful for you. Is there another way we can look at this? Is there something else that this could mean that you have to go through this process? Is there another way to think of this or another area to put your focus? And they said, no, that’s stupid. That’s not going to change anything. I’m not getting jobs and I never will be. And I was like, okay, well, I don’t know what to do.
And as a result of that, I actually changed my coaching contract. And I’ll share that story with potential clients because I’ll say like the coaching process is about these, about stories and about perspectives and about, you know, trying to see if there’s an easier way to think of something. And I’m going to ask you to be willing to explore those, you know, those ways of being, because I can’t come there and write your resume for you. Right? Like, if we hit that point in our coaching session, there’s not a lot more that I can do.
But you’re right. And this is the thing: I think if we have had negative experiences in the workplace, if we have seen ourselves be unprofessional, if we’ve seen ourselves struggle, we’re going to start to get into those stories.
And if we need to job search, or even if we have a job, we may be the person who’s, you know, not getting promoted, not because the quality of your work isn’t good, not because you don’t have what it takes, but because you’ve already convinced yourself that you’re not a good worker.
[00:06:30] Ash: Yeah, Dusty. Just as we said at the beginning that that nail thing could be something that sticks with you, negative criticism is a big signal. As people with ADHD, we do often tend to think of ourselves as unprofessional or less professional than others, because we’ve gotten that feedback over a lifetime.And we tend to hear and retain the negative feedback, but we discount the positive, any positive feedback, just as your client was doing, right? Your client really dug into this story of I’m not good at this and I will never be good at this. I often coach clients through career changes. One of my favorite client archetypes at whatever age they are at is the quote unquote, I don’t know what I want to be when I grow up client, the client that comes and is in a job situation that isn’t working for them.
And there’s an opportunity to coach around that in a bigger picture way, meaning the client is really open to being a choice, open to the possibility that the coaching might reveal that this place is not a fit. And when you’re coming from one down, what you’re not doing is being at choice, and you’re not seeing nuance and distinction, right?
So if a workplace is challenging for you as a person with ADHD, we’re really good at being that blame sponge at just assuming that all of those challenges are our fault, are the results of ADHD. Years ago, I talked about a client of mine – and I’m not going to tell the long version of this story again, but I’ll tell the short version – that I coach actually ended up coaching back into a career field that he had left, which was an interesting outcome because when we first started working together, he told me I’ve left this career field. I’m looking for a career change. I’m trying to maybe start a business in a completely unrelated field. And that’s where our coaching started.
And big part of the reason that he was carrying this belief that I need to change career fields is he was let go from his previous job. And his former boss told him you should find a new line of work. Oof, that story really, really stuck with him. We had coached about it on and off as it came up in our work. This belief.
And then one day someone reached out to recruit him to come back into this field, someone he had worked with before. And it was in every other way, the money, the company culture, the job itself, it just all looked so great. But my client still had this fear on board of, can I actually do this?
And so in that session, we really broke down what happened at that last job, and all of a sudden, all this detail, and I’d been with this client for like a year plus at this point, all of this detail that had never come out before starts coming out.
This small company was bought by a larger company, and the entire workplace culture changed. And demands for my client went way up while resources and support went way down. So yes, there were performance issues. However, ADHD was not at the top of the list of reasons my client was struggling. A lot of the struggle was coming from things he had nothing to do with. Sure, ADHD was in the mix. It wasn’t helping the situation. It certainly had a role to play in the outcome that my client had there, but it wasn’t the only thing or even the primary thing, right.
And so that perspective shift for that client was huge, was absolutely massive. Like just because one person said it, just because that one person said to you that your nails have to be manicured before you go into a job interview.
[00:10:46] Dusty: I’m at a conference now, and I made sure to get my nails done just in case I was being judged. [00:10:52] Ash: You know, I was noticing your well manicured nails today, and I was going to make a joke about that… [00:10:57] Dusty: No, that was that. Yeah. That was on purpose because I was like, I’m presenting. What if someone in the audience is judging me? [00:11:03] Ash: Right? So, again, you see how that stuff can really stick with you. That one person said it to you one time. And as people with ADHD, what are we doing? We’re constantly surveying. We’re constantly trying to figure out how we’re supposed to follow the rules. So somebody gives us a rule like that, and now that’s part of what has to be done before I go to a conference is I have to make sure to do my nails. There’s no room for nuance and distinction there.So Dusty, let’s maybe pivot here and talk about what do you think it looks like to redefine professionalism? We’ve talked in the first half of this episode about how we as people with ADHD can get caught up in a particular idea of professionalism, and really how the neurotypical world at large can hold us to unfair standards that maybe have nothing to do with our ability to do our job well. But what does it look like to redefine that? To flip the script? To have a different experience?
[00:12:00] Dusty: Yeah, well, and it’s funny that client story you shared as well. I just wanted to share that I actually just had a super similar thing happen with a client as well, but they were self-employed and they had failed at their business. So they wanted to change businesses, and just nothing that they were trying was working.And they ultimately ended up deciding to go back to retry the thing that they first tried, but we talked about it from like a small business entrepreneur sense. And this person had not done any marketing. They hadn’t set up a website. They hadn’t learned anything about like business basics.
And so it became clear, like the reason you failed isn’t this like innate? Like, you just suck at this. Actually, there’s a bunch of steps that you skipped. Very ADHD. And if you did those things, there’s a great chance that you may have been wildly successful because, and this is how this ties in, that’s where that person’s passion lies. Right.
And so I think one of the things we do is we get mixed up with like the 80, 20 rule, right. Where we’re putting like 80 percent of our focus on like the 20 percent that we’re not good at. And so often with my clients in the workplace, they and their employers are focused on the areas where they are struggling, where they’re underperforming.
And what we know about ADHD, and what I always tell my clients is like, if something, maybe this is true for you, Asher, you can tell me, but like, if something feels easy, it feels like you’re cheating or it feels like that doesn’t count, right? Like, the thing that you’re good at is just like a gimme. Like, it’s not, it has no value if you’re good at it.
Okay, well, this just is so easy for me. I don’t have to put any effort. It obviously has no value. And the thing that I’m really bad at, that I have to put a lot of effort into, well, that’s the thing that has value. And my clients’ minds are always blown when I explain to them, no, that thing that you do, like, you know, it’s just clicks. That is actually the thing that is super valuable to other people that they can’t do.
And if we focus 80 percent of our effort on what we’re already good at, and we play to our areas of strengths, and sometimes that looks like starting a business that aligns with your natural interests or your natural talents. Sometimes it looks like redefining your role in the workplace and seeing if you can change some of your job responsibilities so that you can be like that, you know, like that beast that they let out of the cage, like that lays that, you know, focused laser blast, you know. When you put a person with ADC in front of something they’re really good at and really enjoy, that’s easy for them, they’re gonna overperform, right?
And so, but so often we’re focused on the wrong thing in our jobs. And that’s important because if you focus on your area of strength, I think you can be so successful that you gain some of the power to leverage the field and to make more choices around how you’re seen and how you’re perceived.
[00:14:42] Ash: Discovering and playing to strengths is such a huge piece of this, but also really understanding your challenges and where they’re coming from, right? In order to be able to advocate for yourself. And that’s really tough with ADHD too. When we don’t know why we struggle to do something, it’s really hard to ask for an accommodation. [00:15:06] Dusty: And I think also like, what’s also involved in that are again, the assumptions and the stories, right? I once had a client who was a teacher, and he was really new to his diagnosis. So he was learning a lot just from our coaching that he didn’t know. And he wasn’t open about his diagnosis at work.But at one point he was working as a teacher pair. And for whatever reason, he decided to just disclose to his co-teacher, Hey, like I have ADHD and you know, paperwork and emails are really hard for me. And she goes, Oh, well, that kind of stuff is really easy for me. So if you don’t want to do it, I don’t mind taking it on.
And he was, again, mind blown because I had suggested that to him like, Oh, could you see if someone else can do this administrative work? And he goes, well, everybody finds that stuff boring. He goes, you know, that administrative stuff is like boring and hard for everyone. So it doesn’t seem fair for me to ask for special treatment and make someone else do it, just, you know, cause they’re going to find it terrible too.
And then like that person literally changed the game for him. She said, Oh no, I like that kind of stuff. Cause it’s not hard for her, right? And so she took away that portion of his job that was just bringing him so way down, and using up all his extra energy, so that he could focus on what he was really, really good at, which was teaching.
And I think when you’re able to redefine your job responsibilities, which starts with the stories you’re telling yourself about what the job responsibilities mean, maybe valuing what’s easy for you a little more, you put yourself in a relative position of power to be able to ask for the things that you don’t want to do, that are your challenges, right?
Like you were saying, Ash, understanding your challenges. So, if you have social challenges, right, if you have time management challenges, maybe you can ask that those parts of your job that are negatively impacting you be reduced.
[00:16:53] Ash: And so this is advocating for yourself and being at choice, right? And being at choice is such a huge piece of this picture when I coach clients around difficult career questions. Most of the time I find that the place that we’re starting is they’re not putting themselves in the picture.They’re completely reacting to whatever the circumstances are. They’re in that one down they’re trying to make up for, and they haven’t really even stopped to consider, what do I want? Or what is working or not working for me here? What are my own boundaries?
But another thing. When we start to get to the place of choice, a concept that I really like to introduce to my clients is the idea of managing expectations. As people with ADHD, we are so prone to whatever the expectation is or whatever we assume it is. We’re going to try and live up to that in whatever way we can. Right. But we never think about, Hey, I have the power to manage expectations, to tell others what to expect and what to not expect from me, to communicate upfront what my strengths are and what my challenges are.
And I actually have a funny little story about that. It was actually an ADHD coaching colleague who opened my eyes to the idea of managing expectations. I had spoken at a conference and was getting pretty overwhelmed by people approaching me and wanting to ask me questions about my talk. My talk was the first day of the conference. And so this was kind of an ongoing thing throughout the weekend.
And I said something to her, and she said, you know what I do? And I said, I have no idea what you do. Please, please enlighten me. What do you do? And she said, I tell people that my brain is already overstimulated and overwhelmed at the conference because it’s a lot, but that they are welcome to email me, and I will be happy to give them an hour of my time if they want to talk about whatever their questions are, whatever else afterwards. And she’s like, and normally just a handful, like you’ll get maybe two or three people that’ll take those additional steps, but it allows you to set a little boundary while still being open to sharing information. Right.
It was like a mind blowing thing for me at the time. Like, Oh, wow. Like what a great idea. Right. But this is something that we have, most of us have the power to do. We’re just terrible at executing it. Right. In my own relationships with my clients, I like to joke that we all have ADHD here. I very much model that. If you don’t show up for a session one time, right, something ADHD happened. It is okay. It is okay. There are going to be no penalties for that because guess what? I will also have that day where I schedule something at a time that I don’t normally have it where I wake up and go, Oh, it’s this day. I don’t have anything this morning because I don’t have things this morning on this day.
[00:19:55] Dusty: You mean how I did that for our podcast one day? [00:19:57] Ash: Yeah, like that. Right. And completely forget about or miss a client session. It doesn’t happen often, but it does happen. And because I’ve modeled for my clients that there’s some flexibility here, and that’s what they can expect from me, that flexibility and grace tends to go both ways.Honestly, when we talk about redefining professionalism in a bigger way, when I’m talking at workplaces to mixed audiences, so audience is comprised of both neurodivergent and neurotypical people. Flexibility is a big part of what I talk about, right? The idea that just because your brain thinks it should work this way, and this makes sense to you, that may not make sense to an ADHD person. So rather than having these assumptions on both sides that are frustrating everyone, how about it?
Here’s another term I like to introduce to my clients. And this one is a coaching term. How about a little co-creation? How about sitting down together and talking about what might be able to work for you, both of you, so that we’re not even necessarily talking about an accommodation. We’re just talking about getting on the same page in terms of in this working dynamic, whatever is breaking down, how can we solve for this in a way that feels actually manageable, doable, maybe even a way that might play to strength or at least mitigate challenge.
[00:21:26] Dusty: Yeah, I love that. And I think that is, you know, largely for me the thing that has been a game changer because I am very professional. I’m in fact a sought after professional for, you know, giving talks and doing coaching. But I’m often not on time for coaching sessions, but I manage expectations.So what I do is if you’re working with me for an hour, we’re actually working together for 50 minutes. And normally we’ll start at the top of that hour and we’ll go till 10 minutes before the top of the hour. But I let everybody know, Hey, I’m a single parent. Sometimes I have child emergencies. And also sometimes I can’t get my clients off the horn. You know, we might, I might need a little bit more time with that previous client. And so you may find that I come to the session up to 10 minutes late. And if that’s the case, we will just go till the end of the hour, but also I’ll text you, right? Like I’ll give people a heads up, hey, I’m running late, right?
So, lateness and like starting the session exactly on time. does not negate or take away from my ability to be professional because during that session, I’m totally attuned to you. I’m there for you. I’m offering extra good customer service. You know, I’m going above and beyond. Like I’ll text you in between sessions if you need me, like whatever, right? Like whatever you need, I’ve got you.
And that’s how I demonstrate my professionalism. And it really kind of reminds me of how back in the day, people were like, you know, we had this idea of like customer service, right? And there was this idea that like, you got the little mom and pop, I don’t know, like vegetable shop and they, you know, they go get you the special cut of whatever from the back.
Like they’re really there to service your needs and care about you as a, as a customer, as a client. That’s how we kind of like used to define this like idea of like good customer service. Right. And like now, you know, people complain about this a lot, but I’ll walk into stores or I’ll go to businesses and services that are beautifully presented. Right. Aesthetically pleasing. Everything is in the perfect place and you can’t get someone on the phone. Like there’s just, you have to go through the chat bot. You can send an email. You can’t talk to a human. Or you can talk to someone, but like, Oh, sorry, we have this policy and like, you’re kind of SOL, right?
Which one of those two situations is more professional? Is it that super high end, fancy looking business where you can’t talk to a person and you can’t get your concern heard? Or is it maybe like the scrubby little mom and pop shop that might have a little bit of like dust in the corners, but like you continue to go there with your business year after year because you feel cared about.
And these are both valid types of professionalism. And for me as a person with ADC, I know which one is going to work better for me, which sort of ethos I’m going to espouse.
[00:24:05] Ash: Dusty, I think it’s so funny we have never once talked about how our client sessions run, and yet we do exactly the same thing. I booked my clients for an hour. I tell them that I will text them at the five minute mark if they’re not there just to check in and see, do they remember that this is a thing?Are they maybe running a little bit behind? But if they’re there within the first 10 minutes, we will have our session as planned. And if they’re not for whatever reason, and I don’t hear from them, I will assume that we need to reschedule. And that works really, really well in my business.
So we were talking about flexible frameworks last week. And in a way, I think we’ve kind of carried that topic forward this week, because so much of this is about a flexible thinking on the part of the person with ADHD, right? In terms of redefining professionalism for yourself and not from a place of challenge, but from a place of strength.
So getting out of one down, seeing your unique strength and value and being at choice, including being at choice if you’re recognizing that a situation simply isn’t going to allow for you to do good work, but also looking for opportunities or advocating for the ability to be flexible in the workplace, right? Knowing what you need and being able to ask for it or being able to manage the expectations of those around you.
I have a client who has worked for the same company for 20 years and while there are workplace challenges there in our early sessions when we’re talking about, we’re kind of mapping out what are the high level things that have your attention for this coaching relationship. There was some work stuff in there, but it was really minor because she said, I’ve been at this company for so long, here’s what I’m not good at. I’m not good at the bureaucratic stuff. I’m not good at getting my expense reports in on time. I’m not good at this, that, or the other, but that is well known about me. And it’s okay. In my workplace, I am respected enough that it is okay for those things to be true. I would like to get better at some of them for my own peace of mind, but it’s not creating a challenge in which I’m in danger of getting fired where I’m being critiqued performance issues.
And I just, I loved that. I love how she showed up. And while she’s got this one down in so many other areas of life, at work she’s like, Nope, they know who I am. And I am really good at my job, and that is okay.
And so I think one of the prevailing messages I want our listeners to take away today is that is possible to have, even being traditionally employed, that is possible to have as a person with ADHD is that type of work situation. It may not be possible where you are right now, but it is possible.
And so how do you get there? Well, like everything else we talk about on this show, you start by getting curious, right? Cultivating some awareness. How am I showing up? Is it showing up from a one down place? What are my strengths here? What value do I bring to this role? How could I play to those more? Where are there opportunities to ask others to be flexible or to ask for some flexibility in how things are done? I’m going to talk, are there opportunities there or not?
Because even as you start to ask these questions, if you’re running into no, no, there’s not opportunity, well, maybe it’s not you. Maybe it’s the workplace that you are in.
[00:27:41] Dusty: I have something to add there. Because you’re right, you know, it’s not always an us problem. And I want to take a minute to acknowledge here that like sometimes ADHD isn’t the only restricting factor here, right? You know, if you are a cisgender white male in a professional industry, there may be a lot more flexibility for, you know, you choosing your own job duties or how you’re perceived, you know. If we’re talking about someone who’s young or poor or black or trans, you may be facing more social barriers and like more real institutional barriers to good employment, right? You might have to just take what you can get.And I want to acknowledge that that is true. And that goes beyond like just your ADHD. But what Asher is saying is also true, because, you know, there’s a million crappy barista jobs out there. There’s like a million retail jobs out there, and not every workplace is going to be the same. There are workplaces run by neurodivergent people. There are workplaces that are way more trans-inclusive.
There are workplaces, you know, and like, it might be the same job, but it doesn’t mean that you’re going to keep having the same experience. This was important for one of my clients recently who was let go from a certain kind of job. Okay. And she was worried that she was just going to keep having the same experience at other jobs. But it was really clear that the experience that she had was linked to like a lot of neurotypical values in communication. And she had a really different way of communicating.
So my thinking as her coach was like, can we look for a workplace that’s the same type of job, but where the style of communication is clearly like more neurodivergent friendly because that exists. And if you don’t think it exists, you won’t look for it.
The thing that really changed for me as a young person was the first time I got a job that had to do with my strengths, which like were being a certain way socially. I’m not going to say like good social skills, but like kind of in your face social skills, right? I got a job as a fundraiser, and this company paid you a good wage and based on how good of a fundraiser you were, which involved how willing you were to talk to strangers, which meant actually not respecting a lot of social rules, right? The less you respect social rules, probably the better fundraiser you were, right. And like being paid and being promoted was based on that.
So what did that mean? It meant we had a lot of young people. It meant we had people covered in tattoos right. It meant, and these people who were young and were covered in tattoos and who were like zany and sort of like outside the box, weird, were getting promoted to positions as managers, being flown all over the country, doing trainings.
I’m so grateful to that company that gave me an opportunity to see myself as a professional, even though, right, even though all these other things. And I came to learn that like, there’s something that I have that I can offer that makes me super professional, even if I make off color jokes now and then or I say an awkward thing or I’m, you know, I show up in like ripped jeans and like structural barriers exist.
I really want to acknowledge that. And every workplace is a microcosm. And I promise that there are workplaces where like your type of culture, your type of communicating has value and is the norm. Like Asher says, it might just not be where you are now
[00:31:02] Ash: Dusty, I like what you said about other barriers. Here in a 30 minute show, we can’t possibly dive into all of the nuance of workplace challenge, but I have coached so many clients over the years to better, happier, more fitting work situations, both with clients who stayed exactly where they are and just learned how to see, recognize, lean into strengths to see, articulate, and advocate for the support they needed with challenges, and with clients who recognize that those things weren’t going to be possible, through no fault of their own, in the situation that they’re in.And so maybe there’s an opportunity to look for something else. And because of the work we’ve done, because we now see strength, it’s in the room. And we also know what those challenges are in a helpful and useful way that as they look for what’s next, they’ve got a lot more to work with in terms of what am I looking for? That job search becomes a job search from a place of strength rather than from a place of challenge or cut and run or clean slate thinking.
And I think this is probably a great place for us to wrap for today. So until next week, listeners, I’m Ash.
[00:32:25] Dusty: And I’m Dusty. [00:32:26] Ash: And this was the Translating ADHD podcast. Thanks for listening.
