In this episode of Translating ADHD, Asher and Dusty explore the complex balance between showing up authentically as a neurodivergent person and the social accommodations necessary for healthy personal relationships. They unpack the nuanced difference between masking (hiding or changing one’s personality to fit in) and modulating (adapting communication and behavior appropriately to different social contexts). The conversation highlights how neurodivergent people often struggle with black-and-white thinking about authenticity, while real-life social interactions require constant give-and-take, consent, and mutual accommodation.
Asher and Dusty also share personal experiences from their working relationship to illustrate concepts of regulating emotions and modulating behavior. They emphasize the importance of ownership of one’s neurodivergent traits alongside understanding the impact those traits have on others. The episode underscores that successful relationships rely on clear communication, willingness to adapt, and recognizing individual capacities for accommodation — all within a foundation of growing intimacy and trust.
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Episode Transcript:
[00:04:04] Asher: Hi, I’m Ash. [00:05:14] Dusty: And I’m Dusty. [00:07:02] Asher: And this is Translating ADHD. [00:10:02] Dusty: Just a reminder, I’m going to be doing a coaching demo on April 16th at 8:30 p.m.. Yes, tea for our patrons. So if you wanted to join Patreon now, you can participate in that. Maybe you can be the one being coached, or you can just hear me do some coaching and it’s going to be lots of fun. So come hang out. [00:27:15] Asher: And listeners, I am still looking to take on a couple of more coaching clients. And as a reminder, I do offer sliding scale. So if finances are a challenge for you in terms of accessing ADHD coaching, go ahead and fill out my form and let’s have a conversation about that and see what we can come up with. So, Dusty. [00:45:25] Dusty: So, Ash. [00:47:01] Asher: What are we talking about today? [00:48:29] Dusty: Today we are continuing our conversation around authenticity and accommodations and being able to show up as your authentic self, neurodivergent wise, but in personal relationships. So specifically, I’m interested in talking about that kind of nuance between like masking and feeling like you have to show up socially as a different person than you are, and that you have to do all the accommodating and like.So the difference between that and also like showing up unfiltered in an authentic way where you might be unintentionally making other people accommodate you in a way that’s not okay for them. So I think it’s I think it’s a really kind of challenging thing for some people to understand when we’re neurodivergent, because we’re prone to that all or nothing black and white thinking.
Right. And it’s like, either I’m my authentic self and I’m like, you know, here I am, bumps, bruises, warts and all. I don’t have to adapt or change how I would be socially or I’m like fully masked and I’m like paying attention all the social cues and I’m doing all the right things. And I think it’s hard for us to like, get the sense of like, what is in between there, because all social spaces and all social relationships are co-created.
And yeah, like we should be able to be our authentic selves, but at the same time, we have to be aware of other people’s like needs, preferences and challenges, and we have to find a way to balance getting our needs met and making sure that things are also like safe and comfortable for other people. And that’s not so. It’s not so. It’s not so black and white.
[02:27:21] Asher: Dusty, it’s not so black and white. And I think the opportunity for this conversation is to distinguish between masking and modulating or regulating. [02:40:18] Dusty: I see this conversation happening a lot in like neurodivergent grassroots spaces where there’s kind of like this assumption that, like neurotypical people have this, like monolithic way of socializing and communicating. They all understand it. There are secret rules that we don’t really know, and we’re just expected to adapt to them. And that’s not the case, right? Even neurotypical people socially modulate like they change and adapt their style and their way of being to different social situations in order to achieve what we might call being socially appropriate.And but that’s not the same as, like, masking, right? Like they’re not doing it to some extent where they’re changing their whole personality. They’re just sort of bringing certain sides of themselves forward and like moving certain sides of themselves a little bit more into the background. There are, I think, some social rules that are ingrained or known, such as like if you’re in church or at the library, maybe you’re not, like swearing and rolling around on the floor, right?
But in other situations, when you’re with friends, you’re like really comfortable with, maybe that’s fine. So I do think that neurotypical people modulate and adapt themselves socially a lot more than we tend to give them credit for in these like neurodivergent, grassroots online space conversations. And so that is something that we also have to do no matter how, like no matter our social capability and no matter our our sort of like experience with, with masking or wanting to be accepted socially, I think pretty much most of us are going to have to do some social adaptation.
And there are exceptions to this rule. Like there are some people for whom they’re neurodivergent, is at such a level, or manifests in such a way that they have, that they are unable to do any kind of social modulation or social adaptation. And then that’s where everybody else should be more accommodating, because like, that’s a disability, right? I think the majority of us are in a gray zone where our ability to, like, maybe understand nuanced social rules is a little bit less than neurotypical people.
So we should be able to get some accommodations. I think it’s fair for us to ask for people to be more understanding of our ways, and to adapt their approach, and not just make it our job to adapt everything. But that doesn’t mean that we just get to show up in social spaces completely unfiltered, do whatever we want, and be like, no, but this is my authentic I’m unmasking.
This is my authentic neurodivergent self. Like, I’m just, you know, you and you have to accommodate it or you’re ablest. Right? And unfortunately, like I do see that being the case with how some people are kind of understanding this concept, you know, and I think it’s problematic. I think all our social spaces are shared, and you’re not just sharing them with neurotypical people, you’re sharing them with other neurodivergent people who might have challenges around the way that you’re showing up.
If you’re not being thoughtful about about what’s appropriate in that shared space, that’s a bit convoluted. But does that make sense?
[05:30:10] Asher: Dusty, this is making sense. But I think what might be helpful here is, do you have an example of what modulating looks like for you? [05:40:05] Dusty: So a really good example is I years ago had a friend move in with me as a roommate, and she was going through the process of like learning that she was ADHD and like all the impacts that it had in her life. And she was also going through a lot at the time. And when she moved in, we had a conflict because she would come into the shared social spaces and she’d often be feeling like a really big emotion, and usually it was like an emotion of sadness or distress.And this would happen, at times the day, like when we were all at the end of the day, like we’re all relaxing and just chilling or like at the beginning of the day, we’re like, we’re all getting ready for work, right? And so it was really I found it really jarring to be sort of in my zone and just kind of vibing, like trying to get my day going.
And then somebody comes into the space and they’re like weeping, right? Or they’re like really upset. And, you know, because I think of myself as a good person and a kind person and a caring person. It didn’t feel right to me to just like, like ignore, ignore her and be like, oh, well, sorry, I have to go to work.
But it started to become really derailing because it was happening pretty frequently. And when we had a conversation about it, I remember she said something to me where, you know, obviously it’s never nice to to be talked to, especially when you’re the new kid on the block and to be told like, hey, like you’re kind of like you’re you’re killing the vibes here, right?
That’s a hard there’s no good way to receive that. And I think she I think she handled it really well. But she said to me, you know, I was told that this is a neurodivergent friendly space and that I wouldn’t have to mask her and like that. This is a place where I could be myself. And I was like that.
That gave me pause because I was like, oh, wait. Like because for a second I was like, wait, am I being like, able is here? Am I like forcing her? You know what I mean? It kind of knocked my brain for a loop, and I had to think about it and I had to explain like, yes, this is a space where you can safely be your full ADHD self.
At the same time, this space is shared by other people who have their own needs, you know? And maybe this is where we make a change. Like there are unspoken rules about, I guess, like what’s appropriate when someone’s getting ready for work or when someone’s like when you walk into a room and everybody there is, like chilling, right?
And like, is it is it the right move to just walk in and kind of have a big, big emotion that changes the the vibe of the room. But but maybe that’s an unspoken rule that that person didn’t know. And so how do we navigate helping her get her needs met, helping her feel cared about and helping her feel like she’s allowed to experience her own emotions in her own home, right as she wants to experience them at the same time as recognizing that everybody else in that house has a right to not have their.
I’ve heard it called like, I don’t know if you’ve ever heard this, but I’ve heard it called like emotional dick picking, which I love is a term because like, here’s the thing, we all know that dick picking or like randomly sending a photo of your genitalia to a person who hasn’t asked for it and is maybe not expecting to see it.
We all know that’s super inappropriate and it’s really jarring. It’s a bit traumatic, right? And so I think what was happening is this person was kind of unintentionally like trauma dumping. And so that is kind of the like emotional equivalent of that, because if I’m chilling in the living room watching a movie, I don’t know, that’s coming at me.
I’m not expecting it and I’m not consented to it. Right. Like, I’ve not consented to be the person to receive that emotion from you. Maybe I’d like to, but if I’m not emotionally prepared, it could be really upsetting to me. It could. It could have, you know, ripple effects on on my mental well-being. And so there has to be this consent around, like, am I ready to receive this really intense thing that you’re going through?
But at the same time, that doesn’t mean you’re not allowed to feel your feelings that doesn’t mean you’re not allowed to experience, you know, the emotional dysregulation that you experienced that makes, you know, that’s understandable. But how do we co-create something where both our needs are going to get met? And so her and I had to navigate that.
And I feel like we did and things got better between us. But for me that was a big moment because I was like, oh, I’m not autistic. And so, well, I have had my own certain social struggles and I’ve had my own challenges around wanting to be accommodated and trying to figure out how to social better. I don’t have to think about masking like it’s not a thing for me.
Right. And so kind of understanding that for some autistic people, once they once they’ve got the consent or some ADHD people, once we’ve sort of got masking as a concept, what comes between masking and complete unfiltered like what is there a space where we can use what skills we have to show up for the people we care about and to to ask for accommodations, but also recognize, like you said, that there’s always going to be some need to modulate.
[10:13:26] Asher: Okay. Let’s see. This actually brings up another question for me because part of this conversation with your roommate is asking for some amount of regulating or showing up differently. So how do you see modulating and regulating as different concepts? [10:28:24] Dusty: Ooh good question. Yeah I think for me like regulating is on the mood piece or on the emotional piece. Right. It’s recognizing that like so again I’m going to talk about Caroline McGuire, who I talked about a couple episodes ago. She had the like intimacy buckets thing. So she, she wrote a really great book called Why Will No One Play With me, which is about social skills coaching for your kids.And now she’s putting out, just in April, a new book called Like the Adult Guide to Friendship or something like that. She’s got like adult ADHD Friendship Guide, which people are really excited about. And, and she talked about this concept of reading The Room, and that really resonates with me because I forget to do that. And this is where I think what we need as far as accommodations and what we can do as far as regulating and modulating may differ depending on our type of neurodivergent.
Because like I as a person with ADHD, I’m fully capable of reading the room and getting a sense of like what is going on socially before I, like jump in. If I take a minute to pause and listen and pay attention. The problem is I just often forget to do that. So like because I’m all in my head and I’m, you know, in whatever mood I’m in, I’ll often, like my roommate, come into a room like a bull in a China shop, bringing in whatever kind of energy and mood I’m in.
What be a happy, good, inappropriate, loud, you know, whatever. Right? So for me, it was helpful to remember that concept of read the room. And I think that’s on regulating for the most part, because I’m taking the emotional temperature of the room and the people in it and then checking it against my emotional temperature and going like, okay, is it appropriate right now for me to come into the room feeling my feelings at full force?
Do I need to kind of dial it down and like, you know, center other people and what’s going on and like, regulate the emotions. Whereas to me, I think the concept of modulating is more on this, this idea of like appropriateness. Right. So we all do this around kids, right? Except for me. I swear on my kids. My kids swear.
But like other adults will always when they’re around my kids, they’ll they’ll drop an F-bomb and then they’ll be like, oh my goodness, oh my goodness, I’m so sorry. Right. And it’s like I go like, no, that’s fine. But like around children will often modulate our, our language and the topics we’re talking about for appropriateness. We do the same thing at work.
We do the same thing at church or with our grandparents when we’re visiting them in the old folks home. Right. To me, I think of modulating as adapting our communications and our body language to like what is appropriate in that space. So again, like if I’m at if I’m at school or I’m at, you know, a board meeting, I’m not going to be like picking my nose and putting my legs up on the, putting my feet up on the table and, and belching loudly.
But around my friends, I mean, I’m, I’m, I don’t pick my nose around my friends, but maybe you guys do, but, like, I might be putting my feet up on the table and, like, belching and, and, you know, being like, more sort of socially inappropriate because it’s like funny. And so it’s appropriate for that space. So that’s how I think of modulating.
[13:24:01] Asher: Thanks for that distinction, Dusty. And I want to I want to say a little bit more on regulating, because I think what you said is great and absolutely true in terms of what regulating is. But I think there’s also more to this picture. Oftentimes with clients, when I am coaching about a personal relationship conflict, be it with a spouse or a friend, some some mismatch in terms of communication, in terms of, how things are going in that relationship.We’re coaching to two different things. We’re coaching to what is the opportunity with this other person. But we’re also coaching too. How can my client show up differently? Because I know for me, believe it or not, and people do not believe this about me because it doesn’t happen very often anymore. But, I can have a bit of a hot temper and so if you say something to me that I take wrong, there is a time in my life where I would just fly off the handle, or if I’m misreading a situation or feeling a certain kind of way, or building up a story in my head about something that’s going on between us, there
is a time where I would just come at you in a hot emotional state about that, and this always resulted in a mia culpa moment on the other side, where there was recognition of the misunderstanding, where there was an opportunity to come back and communicate. And so checking in with ourselves, doing the pause, disrupt, pivot in terms of not responding to that big emotion.
So noticing the big emotion and then being able to step back from it and get curious about what’s actually going on here. What is the emotion I’m experiencing here? What is the story I’m telling myself? What do I actually know about what’s happening right now? And for me, the question I often ask myself when I’m having a negative emotion about an interpersonal relationship is what? What’s the conversation I actually need to have here? So rather than just going at all blah. I’m feeling this way and you this.
And not. No, not like taking a pause and getting curious and asking myself first before I approach you. What do I know about the conversation that I need to have? And you may not have all the answers, by the way. For example, when cam and I were working together, there was a period of time where he was showing up differently and I was building a story in my head that this had something to do with me, and it was really affecting me, and it was affecting how I felt about him.
When I actually asked him and I asked if this was a calm conversation, I knew what conversation I needed to have. I shared what I was noticing and asked him if that had something to do with our working relationship, and it turned out it didn’t at all. Cam was going through some completely unrelated stuff that was affecting how he was showing up in our shared space.
And so imagine if instead I had flown off the handle at him, assuming that it had something to do with us that would have been completely unhelpful for both of us, and potentially damaging, understandably so, to our relationship. And so regulating. Yes, take the temperature of the room, but also maybe take your own temperature. Recognize when you’re having a disregulated moment, and rather than reacting to that emotional dysregulation, stepping back and having a pause disrupt pivot moment where you get curious and figure out what’s the need from here.
What’s the conversation that I need to have? What do I know about this feeling that I’m having? And what does a level headed next step look like?
[17:23:06] Dusty: What you said there, Ash, is like so familiar to me, this idea of like, you know, you think something’s wrong. And I think that’s like a really good that’s like rejection sensitivity in a nutshell. Right? Like you don’t really have the info about what’s going on, but you refer back to like, past experiences or like past inferences you’ve made, and then you go like, okay, I know what this is.And then you come to the wrong conclusion because you’re not communicating right. I think it’s really important to say that in my opinion, you know, dysregulation is a hallmark, symptom that we experience as, you know, neurodivergent people. And it’s on us to manage that. And so, like showing up dysregulated and expecting everyone to take it isn’t part of, you know, quote unquote, showing up authentically or like unmasking like, that’s not that that’s not what that is.
Right? That is still your responsibility to like, you’re responsible for your own thoughts and feelings. Your it’s not anybody else’s responsibility to like, regulate you. I think there’s something here. Co regulation. Right. And we can co regulate each other and that’s, that’s a consensual thing that people opt into that needs talking about. It’s not something you just like put on other people.
And I’m saying I say that as a person who, if any, if any of my friends are listening to this episode, they’re rolling their eyes at me right now because, like, I’m totally like, I’m such a hothead, but I, I, I really try to catch myself if I can’t catch myself before I try to catch myself, like, right after and be like, sorry about that.
Sorry. I’m on it. Sorry, guys. Now give me a second. I’m just gonna step away. I think, like, what I’m what I’m thinking about here is like, what is the process by which you determine who has to do more accommodating, who has the greater capacity, and what does that look like? Because it’s going to be different every time.
I’m having a really interesting experience right now. Ash, where I have a new friend who is ADHD and they’re kind of just learning about they’ve known that they have ADHD for a long time, and they’re just kind of like learning more about the, like, autistic aspect of themselves. And they’re really working hard to show up more authentically and to be okay with being who they are in front of people after a lifetime of being made to feel like who they are as wrong.
So that’s, you know, what I would call that process of unmasking and how this is showing up a lot is in their communication and communicating like their needs and preferences. And like when I say this, what I mean is x. So it’s interesting because it’s not often that I’m the person that has like the greater capacity for accommodation.
And this is a situation where I distinctly notice that, like, I’m the person for whom it’s less taxing to communicate a little bit more on their level and to adapt my social and communication style to be more like what they need or like to to work a little harder to understand versus like demanding that that person communicate in my way.
Right. So whereas in the past with my like neurotypical friends, I felt comfortable advocating for myself and being like, okay, I have ADHD. So like if I say this or if I show up this way, like, please understand, like do that translation, right? Translate the ADHD. And I’ve had a lot of wonderful people in my life who are willing to do that.
And, and they’ve even said to me like, there’s been times where I’ve asked friends like, hey, do you like, find me hard to deal with or whatever? Or like, do you find, you know, is this challenging? And they’ll be like, no, I just know that, like, you know, you do this thing and that, like, this means that, right?
So they they I know that some of my friends will do that translating for me. And so now I’m having kind of a bit of an experience, and maybe I’ve had it before with some other friends where like the other person might say or do something in a way that catches me off guard and I go like, oh, and maybe I, I’m a little bit I find it jarring or maybe I, it catches me off guard and I’m not sure what it means.
And I’m like, okay, well, let me access my database about like what I know about this person, their communication needs and like, let me apply that and do the translating myself. And so in this situation where two neurodivergent people but we’ve had explicit conversations about who’s accommodating, who in what way, and I’ve had those conversations before with people who have greater capacity.
So I think there’s there’s like willingness, there’s consent and then there’s capacity. And all of these things play into like how you navigate creating a shared space where, where neurodivergent people can feel accommodated and can show up more authentically. And not everyone is going to be able to do that, right. So I’ve had situations like with partners, for example, where people have found me weird, or I see things in a way where a part like a particularly like a partner will continually take it the wrong way.
And so that tells me, okay, this person’s not willing or able to accommodate me in this way. So if I don’t want to keep having a conflict, if I don’t want to keep repeating a conflictual pattern when this comes up, okay, I have to adapt to my my way of being. And I think we all have the ability to, to like decide if that’s right for us and sustainable for us.
So certainly I’ve been in situations I’m thinking of a particular partner that I had where the person like didn’t have a great understanding of ADHD and they tried, but like in my normal way of communicating, they would just always take it the wrong way because it just wasn’t what they were used to. And so I kind of had a lot of experiences with this person where they made me feel like the way that I communicated was like weird or offputting or that they didn’t understand me.
And so it just kind of built up more and more where like I kept having to adapt my way of communicating just little daily things to the point where I was like, I don’t like this. Like, this doesn’t work for me. And neither of us were able, I think, to like, come over to the other person’s side enough that it would have made us both feel comfortable.
So we just had these like continual small misunderstandings. Whereas the example that I just gave with a friend of mine who’s like, OD’d and kind of learning about themselves, I find it very easy for us. I really enjoy, like co-creating a space with this person because everything is explicit. You know, we can communicate about everything. And I find that’s like very, like very inherent in, like neurodivergent culture and communication styles.
This over communication. Like, I’ve, I find that for some of my neurotypical friends and stuff, they’re like, whoa. Like they maybe they don’t need to talk about it as much. And I’m not. Again, I’m not making, inferences across the board, but with this person that I’m hanging out with right now is really easy because they can say like, oh, hey, like, this is a thing that I do.
Just so you know. And like, if I say this like, it doesn’t mean blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, and I go, cool, I’m not going to take it that way. And then when they do it, I’m like, it’s easy. It’s understood. We can, you know, because we talked about it. So I think there’s I think there’s yeah, there’s consent.
Right. The willingness there’s the ability, there’s the capacity. And all of those have to be present if we’re going to co-create spaces. And when that’s not present in a social situation, it doesn’t mean that you as a neurodivergent person are wrong and that you’re, like, coming from the one down perspective, it actually speaks to a choice that you need to make about whether or not this is a safe and sustainable relationship for you to be in long term, whether that’s like friendship or anything.
[24:19:12] Asher: Dusty, this this to me falls under ownership, right? We talk about understand, translate owning your own stuff, asking for but not demanding what you need and finding that healthy space between. Not every person is going to be able to meet every need of yours. I know for me, in my small circle of chosen family, I sort of know who to go to with what right there.I have one friend who can find my when I’m really disregulated who can find that really overwhelming. And so that’s not the person I go to when I’m super dysregulated. I’ve another friend who can can be completely comfortable when I am just. I just need to talk at you and say all of the awful things. I’m thinking out loud so I can hear them.
Who is perfectly comfortable holding that space and so knowing what I need, but also knowing who’s appropriate to go to for that, who’s at that level of intimacy, who understands me in that way, and who who is it safe for? For them to experience me in that way? I think before we wrap up this episode a little example from our own working relationship would be an interesting, interesting place to go from here.
So when Dusty and I first started working together, there is there is a bit of a struggle. There is a moment of getting to know each other. Dusty’s style is very, very different than Cam’s cam would show up. Boom, I made Ted. My schedule is tight. Let’s let’s talk for maybe a minute or two. But then let’s get our outline, let’s get our episode laid out, and then I have to go.
And the first several times that Dusty showed up, she was upstairs, completely unready. Doesn’t know, don’t didn’t know where your podcast microphone was, didn’t know where any of it was. Often anywhere from 10 to 30 minutes late. And I found that really frustrating because for my neurodivergence, I don’t like to feel like I’m in a waiting mode.
And so this I’m running late, I’m running late was really challenging for me. And it was also really challenging for the way my schedule worked at the time, because I was scheduled around this pretty tight. Like, the podcast lives in this window and there’s not a lot of flexibility there. Now, this sounds like I’m ripping on Dusty and I’m absolutely not.
We have found an excellent middle ground that is working really well for both of us, and we both kind of come to appreciate it because you’re still always in your kitchen when when we get together, but now it’s 5 to 10 minutes late, which does not trigger that waiting mode time that I find frustrating for me. And it’s become this practice of transition time that I think we both appreciate, but for you in particular is kind of a need.
So, Dusty, why don’t you talk about that need that’s being met in this nice middle ground place that we found, where it’s no longer frustrating or upsetting for me, and you’re still getting what you need in order to be able to sit down and and do this thing we’re doing right now of making the show.
[27:31:12] Dusty: Yeah. I’m not offended. I know what I’m about. I’m aware. But I will say, I think it speaks very much to like, the emotional regulation work that you’ve done that you mentioned earlier in this episode, because I had no idea that you were frustrated until we talked about this the other day. It’s interesting that you say that, because what I found when we first started the podcast, like, I didn’t really know what to expect.And it’s true. I was like super disorganized at the beginning, like, I wasn’t I didn’t know how to be ready. Right? I had to like, learn, figure out what it meant to be ready. But it’s interesting, that thing you say about cam, because I feel like it’s not that I’m not busy, like I’m also really busy, but it just manifests in a different way where I’m like, I only have so much time.
But what I found is maybe because we didn’t know each other, when we would sit down to a podcast, I would find that we would end up using a lot of time, like talking, sometimes talking about the episode, and then sometimes just like chatting. And then for me, I’m like, okay, if we’re going to like get down to brass tacks and we’re just going to record, that’s one thing.
But like if there’s this undefined period of like chatting, like I also I have so many things to do, I also need to be using that time to do those things. Like if we’re going to chat, why don’t I be in my kitchen? Or like, why don’t I be, you know what I mean? Like, I can use the chatting period to also transition.
So that’s kind of how I like saw it. And I’ve always been the kind of person where I need a little bit of help with transitions. It’s always been very helpful to me to to have somebody body double with me to get ready, like it’s very it’s just always going to be that way for me. Like it’s much harder for me to like show up ready on time.
But if I can like spend a little bit of time getting ready with the person and do some of. Yeah, like, can we talk about the episode while I’m getting ready? Because if I feel like I have so many things in my brain anyway and I’m like, oh my God, I got to do this, I got to do this, I got to do that.
And then we’re just like sitting and talking. It’s also going to be hard for me to like, be really present and focused and engaged on that chat, because I’m thinking about all the things I got to do, or I’m feeling like itchy. So to me, my brain’s like, let’s make this our transition time. Because I found that we always did need that time to talk.
So it’s interesting because I feel like, yeah, I’m also like it’s also an issue of being very busy, but it manifest totally differently. And yeah, I’ve just always been that way. But I think it was like because I had never done a podcast before too. Like I didn’t know what ready looked like or meant, you know? And now that I do, like you say, it’s it’s a lot easier.
There’s still like times now because of I’ve gone through so many, changes in my household structure, like with the new kids coming in and the baby and everything. And, so there’s, there has still been times where I, like, I message you and I’m like, I’m stuck in traffic. I’m like 30 minutes away from my house. Like, we got to reschedule.
And that’s, you know, that’s that’s going to happen from time to time just because it’s so, you know, we were talking earlier in the episode about a client that you have that has lots of like, young kids, and sometimes there’s just no way for me to be organized enough to, like, nail all the different pieces of like, a school morning where everything’s going wrong.
But for the most part, like you say, it’s a shorter time, but it is that time that I’m using as a transition. And that works for both of us, because I think there’s something really valuable in the like, slow build up and chit chat that we do like. It would feel a bit abrupt to just jump into it most of the time, unless it’s like, okay, there’s something, there’s something special going on and we really only have, you know, 45 minutes a day, like, let’s get in and get out.
So we, I think, feel like we found a way to kind of optimize it for both of us. I don’t know, what do you think?
[31:00:06] Asher: Well, I will say I found this really interesting to listen to because like you, I feel like I’m learning new things about these adjustments we’ve made along the way that are working for both of us. And learn something new about what that transition time is for you. But yeah, I think I came in with one expectation because I had a different partner in this podcast before and what worked for him, and I was that sitting down, getting right down to it, workshopping the episode in that way.And you just described why that doesn’t and would never work for you. And so we found our own way of workshopping an episode that does work for us and works really well for us, but looks really different with your neurodivergent brain and mind than it did with Cam’s neurodivergent brain and mine. And so how interesting. But listeners, you hear like we’re both modulating, right?
Even that thing you said, if you’re if you’re 30 or more minutes late, the adjustment from can you wait for me to can we reschedule is recognizing and honoring my waiting mode thing that I would rather just plan another time than have to sit around and kind of wait for an unknown time that you will be available. And so, listeners, I want you to hear how we’re both modulating.
And Dusty, you pointed out earlier, we both did some regulating along the way where there where there were some feelings, but those feelings never came out in an explosive manner. They always came out in terms of constructive asks, in terms of this is what I need, or how can we adjust this way?
[32:43:27] Dusty: And, and like the only thing I’ll say is like, I think I didn’t know until we talked about this, like how much it was bothering you and you could have this is not a criticism, but like, you could have told me earlier how much it was bothering you because I’ll say like one adaptation I made with myself is like, I’m very messy, I’m very emotional, and I’m often running late, and I’m aware of, like, how frustrating that can be for other people.And it used to I used to be really defensive about it and have like really, really bad rejection sensitivity and like and have a lot of self-esteem issues around it. But I some somehow along the way, like I kind of made this transition where like I just kind of like accepted these things about myself and I like accepted that they are hard for other people.
And I just decided not to be offended about them or not to feel heard about them, or not to like me, like not to feel badly about myself, about them, but like, recognize that like, okay, this is like a me problem. And I know that it’s going to bother people. And so whenever people do come to me and they tell me, like, you’re doing this thing that is like hard for me, it used to make me feel really bad and wounded, but now I’m just like, oh yeah, like like I like, I know what I’m about.
And I’m fully aware that this is like a thing that really bothers people. So like, please, like I became like a please let me know person. And so now it doesn’t bother me or hurt me when people let me know. I’m actually like really glad. Because sometimes if people don’t tell me, like I actually won’t know. And I think, like the case with you, you you’re so chill that I may have unintentionally have exacerbated that by being like, oh, Asher, it doesn’t seem doesn’t seem to mind.
Right. So I really like I actually really like it when people tell me when I’m doing things that bother them. Because if I don’t know, like sometimes I can, I guess, change it a little more. And like, now that I know this about you, you know, now that we talk about it more explicitly because there was an episode of a couple episodes ago where, like, my power went out and it was really wonky.
And I think that’s where it became really explicit. How much waiting mode bothers you? And so now I can be really mindful of that. And in the future, when the schedule goes awry, I can be even more on top of being like, hey Ash, let’s reschedule so that you’re not stuck in waiting mode and I can be more thoughtful of you, but sometimes I need help to understand how other people function, because other people do function really different for me and a lot of other people function differently from one another.
So I sometimes need that very explicit like this is how I this is what works for me. And I won’t take offense to it where like but I won’t make it about myself. I like that, but it took me a long time to become that person, because when I was younger I would very much inconvenience everyone, but then also be like, really heard about it. So it’s not a good scene.
[35:23:18] Asher: A couple of things I’m appreciating about what you just said is, first, that ownership, that modeling, that’s something I’ve appreciated about you from day one. You really do have this chaotic life that some that somehow all works. But it’s it’s so chaotic and you own that about yourself, including owning the impact on others. But as far as not saying something before now, I think we can point to some of the things we’ve talked about over the last several episodes.The one that’s coming to mind first for me is buckets of intimacy. We didn’t know each other that well when we decided to start doing this podcast together, and so I think that there, alongside this period of figuring out our working relationship, has also been a period of growing our friendship, moving the meter on. Where do we lie intimately?
Can we? Is it safe to talk about these things in this way and getting to know each other? Neurodivergent Lee. Right, which takes time. So I will counter what you said with I think something wasn’t said before now because we just didn’t have the clarity, the knowledge of one another and the level of intimacy to have this type of conversation where we can be really, really nuanced about our own quirky, neurodivergent needs and make these really specific asks of one another.
People I know casually, acquaintances I don’t use terms like waiting mode. I don’t I don’t ask them to accommodate me in these super nuanced ways, because that’s that’s just not where those relationships are. That’s on me to modulate or regulate or let go of that relationship. If if it’s bumping up against my neurodivergent in a way that’s untenable for me.
So all of this to say that my my counter to why haven’t we had this conversation until now? Or I could have said something sooner is we’ve been doing that work all along to get from where we started, to get to where we are now, where we can have this type of very nuanced conversation about our neurodivergent needs and where we can willingly accommodate one another.
[37:55:13] Dusty: You’re exactly. That’s it. Right? We’re we’re building intimacy. And this is the thing not to say that even had you said anything earlier that I could have, like, I’m not I’m not implying that it was always fully within my control to be on time. Absolutely. Not even knowing this. Now, that doesn’t mean that like at, you know, 930 on the dot, I’m going to be like at my desk with everything set up ready.And it’s interesting because when you say you’re like, oh, you have this big chaotic life, I feel like it’s two things. On the one hand, I have this big, chaotic life because I can’t do it any other way. Like I have tried to be like more organized, take on less, like I’ve tried so hard. And I’ve come to the conclusion that there are just some things that are like beyond me.
Showing up on time, organized and ready for everything is one of them. I can show up on time, organized and ready for like one small thing and I have to save that for work basically, right? That’s that. It takes a lot out of me, takes a lot of my spoons, and so I can’t do it most of the time.
My kid is late to school very frequently. Band practices. There’s most places in my life I’m not able to do it because I have to save it for for like one area. But on the other hand, like there are some things that are more in my control. Like for example, you know, if I’m going to be running really late, letting you know sooner or asking for a reschedule, rather than saying like, hey, I’ll be there soon, right?
Like there are still adaptations I can make within that lack of capacity to, like, show up on time and ready. But one thing that also that I can that I’ve learned to do, that I can do is to say like, I I’m going to take a second here and to say, like, I appreciate so much how hard that must have been for you and like, how much effort you put in to accommodate me up to this point.
And like, I’m, I just want to take a minute to, like, apologize to you and to, like, I’m so sorry that I put you through that and that probably kind of sucked. So like, thank you for thank you for, making that space for me. And I’m sorry that that, you know, that that kind of, like, happened that way between us at the beginning.
And I’m glad that we have figured this out more, because I really appreciate you not giving me a hard time or, like, not giving up on me. And that’s very meaningful for me. And I appreciate you.
[39:57:22] Asher: Dusty. I appreciate you, too. And I, I really want to reiterate that there’s no need for an apology here, because while we had a bumpy start, I was being a choice. And back to what I said a moment ago. We were building to a place where we could better accommodate one another, and that’s something that I’ve been invested in since we started working together.I’ve enjoyed working with you on this podcast since we started recording together. If listeners, if you remember, this was initially going to be a 12 episode partnership, and then I was going to like rotate guest hosts from there. And I asked you if you would stay on with me because we were having such a good time and having such interesting conversations.
So please know, alongside the challenges we had, I also saw the opportunity. I saw that I wanted to grow in this relationship with you. I saw that I wanted to keep working with you, and I trusted that over time we would iron out the kinks, which we did. So I was being at choice and regulating myself and accommodating you.
And now we’re in this new place where we can we can do it better together. And the last thing I want to say before we wrap for today is listeners, I do want you to hear, apology aside, because that was not necessary. I do want you to hear in what Dusty just said, I want you to hear the ownership in that right.
My life is big and chaotic. I can’t do it any other way. And I recognize the impact that that has on others. And I try to adjust and accommodate in ways that work for me, knowing that that has an impact on others. So that’s that thing we were talking about earlier in terms of owning your stuff, managing others expectations, asking for what you need.
And also, I think something to add to that is recognizing the impact on others. When you can’t show up differently, when you’re only able to show up this way, that’s all ownership. And I think that’s just points to what we’re getting at in today’s episode. Not not everybody is going to be for everyone. There are people who will never be able to be your friend because you are who you are.
And that’s true for me too. That’s true for every single one of you listening to this episode. But what a beautiful space in personal relationships when you can be yourself. And that does absolutely include owning when that might be challenging for those around you.
[42:36:07] Dusty: I’m just laughing because we’re like, we’re doing it again. We’re having such a neurodivergent moment because like, for me, okay, here’s the thing. I love to give an apology a B, as it used to me. I never used to be able to apologize because whenever I would say I’m sorry, it would immediately cause, like, I’m sorry for who I am and like, it would trigger this whole big, like, oh, you never used to apologize.And then I now I feel like I love to give an apology because for me, it’s more about like when I say like, oh, I’m sorry about a thing. They’re like, it’s my way of acknowledging your feelings and making you feel cared about. Not like I did something wrong and I’m bad. It’s my way of being like, I feel like saying an apology to somebody is a way of caring about letting them know that I cared about an impact.
It doesn’t do anything to me like, oh, I’m I’m bad, I need to apologize or something like that. So it’s not like you don’t have to apologize. I’m like, but I love I love giving an apology, though. It’s like such a great way for me to let someone know that I care about them and also like, acknowledge. Yeah, that, you know, I’m aware that that had an impact.
I didn’t have an awareness then, but I have the awareness now. And I want you to know that that matters. Like even in it, we’re still like we’re like two opposite. Know what the versus blue.
[43:43:08] Asher: Letters are sort of you’re sort of getting a bird’s eye view in real time in terms of what these types of nuanced conversations can look like in the appropriate bucket of intimacy. Again, I’m not going to be having this type of conversation with an acquaintance wouldn’t have been able to have this type of conversation with Dusty when we initially started working together, but now in a place where we can comfortably work this out in real time.Here I am rejecting Dusty’s apology and she’s like, no, take it, because that’s how I own my stuff. That’s how I own my impact on you. Let me own it. So let’s end here. Dusty with apology accepted and really stoked that we’re not only in this place, but that we got to share this with our listeners today. I think this is a really fascinating episode that we we did some of the work that together that we spent the first half of the episode talking about in real time.
[44:41:25] Dusty: I know I’m so stoked. I’m like, oh my God, they’re going to love this. [44:44:12] Asher: Yeah, I think this is a good one. So listeners, especially those of you in the discord, let us know what your experience of this episode was. And until next week, I’m Ash. [44:54:15] Dusty: And I’m Dusty.
[44:55:16] Asher: And this was the Translating ADHD podcast. Thanks for listening.
